Stuff and things....

[lithera]

Venom? Really? You're going to make a spin-off Venom movie? And how, exactly, is Venom going to hold a movie? Are you going to make him a good guy? Ugh. *makes a face*

I keep going around and around in circles in my head. I feel as though I'm missing something. In any sort of entertainment if a character dies and it is just a death and it doesn't do anything for plot or character it is for no reason. If a character dies and it is for plot or character motivational reasons it is a fridging. (And for personal preference, I'm using the term for either gender as an accessable short hand. Get mad at me if you will.) There is another option of martyrdom, which is marginally better. I don't know where I'm going with this but I'm having a hard time figuring out deaths that aren't any of the above in fiction. I dislike it when there is no death in fiction since it feels silly to me when no one dies.

I don't know. I must be missing something. Or too good at arguing with myself.

Almost caught up at work.

Tired. Sore. The gym is kicking my ass. I still kind of hate it. At the same time, I like pushing myself.

I still want The Essential Batman Encyclopedia.

I'm still horrified at the idea of Keanu Reeves as Spike in a Cowboy Bebop movie.

The Watchmen posters are pretty awesome: http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/08/01/wb-releases-those-watchmen-posters/

Comments

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

If a character dies and it is for plot or character motivational reasons it is a fridging.

Bonus points for when the fridgee had no apparent life outside of the person who is meant to be motivated.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing though... Can you have a death that isn't a) pointless (Death happens.)_ b) martyrdom or c) fridging? It is all contextual? I can't think of any examples that can't be argued for one of the above. I understand that the disproportionate numbers of women involved here being a point of suckage (and I think that's part of why I hated Rachel from the start because I knew what her fate had to be in a Batman story) but in a novel or a movie or /anything/ if you have a death, it needs to move something forward, it needs to do something. Even if it is just to say that sometimes death happens and that sucks.

Simply put, everything in fiction should tie into the plot or the narrative at some point.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

[futuredirt.livejournal.com]

I guess I should preface this with a big fat "Spiderman 3 blew ass". With that out of the way, I am not opposed to a Venom spin-off just so long as the bastards involved with his first appearance are not in any way involved. In the comics, Venom has had several mini-series. In some of them, and even in the main books he often played it close to the line of morality. I don't think he was ever full on good, but let's take gangsters as an example: they have a code (or rather use to). While they are criminals by society's standards, there are those who have very high "family values". This point could be argued to death, but I think you get the idea.

Fridging is bs for the most part, but calling "Women in refrigerator" is 100% bs. I know you didn't invoke such crap, but since the subject came up I thought I would add my thoughts. You may ignore as it pleases you.

I just don't get the fuss. Perhaps it is because I am a guy and lack the ability to understand why using a FICTIONAL character's death as a plot point for another character is reason for a fuss. Yes, many times it is women who are considered expendable. Aren't most crimes in the real world perpetrated against women? It is art imitating life, not an attack on women. I love Gail and all, but I think she completely missed the point on this one.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you make the point for the idiocy of fridging. If every death that furthers the plot is fridging then damn near every author ever is guilty and it loses its intended meaning entirely. I am up for debate on this if I missed the point somewhere.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

Well, for the the women in refrigerators thing is valid because a largely disproportional portion of the time, it is a female character who dies (or is tortured) in a horrible fashion to convince the male hero to act. That part I don't have a problem with, specifically. While statistically I would guess you are correct, I would also think that in fiction (especially some kinds of fiction) we're not as close to the reality as we should be.

My main concern is what are we looking for? Are we looking at not using death as a motivational method? Are we looking at reaching gender parity with whom the horrible things happen to? I'm just unclear on what the resolution is.

[electricvinyl.livejournal.com]

Keanu as Spike? *shudders* The horror... the horror... :(

Venom = No

Those Watchmen posters are amazing. Between those and the trailer it looks like it is going to be an amazing movie... though I have no idea how it will be an amazing movie because there is no way that story will fit in 2 and 1/2 hours... but... but... it looks so good... I... I... paradox... to much pressure... *head explodes*

=P

[lithera.livejournal.com]

I think there is a lot of stuff in Watchmen which can be shown contextually that doesn't have to be spelled out for the viewer. That actually trims a lot of the story run time without losing anything.

[electricvinyl.livejournal.com]

This is true, but I think a lot of those intricate little details that make Watchmen one of the best graphic novels of all time are going to to have no choice but to be left on the cutting room floor. That said, I am really looking forward to seeing it and I want so bad for it to be mind-blowing awesome.

Though I do hope they leave out the "Hi mom, we are are fine and living new secret lives," part of the ending. That part always felt... tacked on to me.

[elscoobysnacko.livejournal.com]

I love Keanu but he is so not Spike material.

[seanb.livejournal.com]

" If a character dies and it is for plot or character motivational reasons it is a fridging."

I really, really want a narrower definition for that term. It's been fascinating to watch the phrase "women in refrigerators" grow and change in application since Gail's original list. We started with the disproportionate number of female superheroiess that had been "depowered, raped, or cut up and stuck in the refrigerator" - intentionally ignoring the wife/girlfriend characters as "a whole 'nother problem".

Then it morphed into "women in refrigerators syndrome", the cheap trick of killing/raping/maiming a female character in order to motivate the male "main" character of a story. Fine - I admit that's a common trick, frequently used in a sexist manner. Remember when people were predicting that Laura Roslyn would be raped "right soon now" because the writers had no other ideas of how to interact with women?

So, now we are getting to the point where anything that isn't a "senseless death" or a "martyrdom" is a "fridging"?

I see "fridging" as the deaths forced by a writer to steer the story in the direction that they want. It's using a vaugely plausible death to blatantly manipulate the audience and force the plot to take a sharp turn. This is a viable technique that can be used to good effect - sparingly.

Also, from the origin of the term we really should take a close look at cases where pain and destabilization to the "hero" are the intent of the villain. This brings us to the Gwen Stacy and Xander Harris examples (true, he wasn't killed, but "permanently maimed" was good enough for the original list). Working with this kind of definition, the finale of Dr. Horrible can be seen as an "accidental" fridging - obvious to the audience, but simultaneously serendipitous and horrific for the "villain" - but that was the point.

Personally, I'm inclined to limit the term "fridging" to deaths/maimings/atrocities that were intended by the "villain" more for psychological impact on"hero" than for any reason directly related to the person who was attacked. Xander was fridged right in the eyeball. Jennie Calendar was totally fridged. Shephard Book - kinda fridgy. Two-Face was trying to fridge Gordon's family.

On the other side of the discussion - do you see martyrdom as intentional self-sacrifice, or is there room for "death in the line of duty" that isn't martyrdom? Did Toshiko and Owen martyr themselves, or just die well?

[lithera.livejournal.com]

See, this is what I was looking for. This is the sort of thing that helps me piece together what it is I must be missing. You points help me clarify where the difference is between all of these things. I've gotten so many people arguing that everything they can't understand the reasons for is 'pointless' and anyone killed for a motivational point ends up being a 'firding'.

I think there should be 'death due to consequences', 'death due to stupidity', 'death in the line of duty' and a few others. I think Owen and Tosh were variable levels of 'in the line of duty' and 'good death'.

[xnbach.livejournal.com]

When/where do you want to meet up this weekend?

[lithera.livejournal.com]

I'm open tonight and tomorrow before three.