More food for thought..

[lithera]

An article about female desire. Very interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=1

I'm still turning some of this over in my head but a lot of it makes sense and fits in with how I think and see things.

Comments

[catwoman980.livejournal.com]

I read an interesting article on the nytimes article, and the book it's based on.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/26/sometimes-just-reading-the-headline-is-enough-to-know-an-article-will-make-you-feel-stabby/

[lithera.livejournal.com]

Hrmmm. Interesting. I'll have to read it more in depth before I comment more. There is something about the reaction here (and a lot of reactions like this) that always upset me. I have never been able to pinpoint it but it centers around "I don't feel this way, this doesn't bother me, in fact this /is/ me, does that make me a bad woman some how that it doesn't trigger a reaction in me?"

If that makes sense.

[of-the-woods.livejournal.com]

That was an interesting article. My own experiences would seem to validate many of the results, but obviously I'm speaking as an outside observer. :)

[lithera.livejournal.com]

It is always hard to separate what is biological at origin and what is trained due to societal programming. I don't envy them trying to pull it apart. It isn't like we have any people to study that don't have some sort of societal programming. This plus the article on 'fat' I linked to last night are sort of swirling around in my head together.

[of-the-woods.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I read that one too... While there are people who are genuinely, unhealthily, and morbidly fat, I think it's quite true that our society punishes a huge swath of people who don't even approach those levels through a host of assumptions and pressures.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

It is very frustrating because a lot of things in both articles I find to be true in my personal experience. It makes for a challenging experience at times. There are long periods of time where I simply shut down a lot of my emotional responses to people (in regards to desire) because I can't get past the perceptions myself, let alone try to ask someone else to do it. I find that I especially shut down toward men as there has been, for me, more acceptance of desire existing and less pressure to do anything about it from women.

I'm sure there is a better way to say that.

[of-the-woods.livejournal.com]

I think I understand.

As I've gotten older, there has been significantly less pressure to "do anything" about desire I may feel toward others. There are female friends of mine who I have incredible lust for, but know nothing will ever happen, and I've learned to just enjoy the desire, flirt a bit, and not stress it. Still, it was hard to get to that point in some cases. The biological urge to mate can be strong :)

[catwoman980.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think that she's commenting on how anybody should or shouldn't react, or that anybody should or shouldn't relate to anything. I think she's only commenting on the details she feels the author is leaving out, and the way that he describes the women doing the study.

And it definitely doesn't make you a bad woman that you don't see things from her perspective. It's just one way out of a zillion ways that study/article can be interpreted. Heck, it's one way out of a zillion feminist ways it can be looked at, since there are so many different flavors of feminism.

I just thought it was neat that one of my tabs had you mentioning the article, and one had an article written about the article, so I cross pollenated. :) I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. I just meant to share that other people are noodling on the same thing.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

That's it almost exactly, except I find it harder to get over the 'you'll never be wanted anyway because of how you look' part with men. I would like to find that happy comfortably flirty place with more people in general. I can be hard to just enjoy it and tamp down the desire to DO SOMETHING about it.

[of-the-woods.livejournal.com]

Yeah, true... women aren't the only ones brainwashed with what the "ideal attractive woman" should look like... and since men are overwhelmingly visually-oriented in our desires, we have to actively learn to appreciate anyone who doesn't comform to those unrealistic standards.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

No, no. You didn't make me feel uncomfortable at all. Just sharing some feelings about how a lot of feminists make me uncomfortable with how they talk about a number of things. (I can't imagine how I'd react if I were a guy.) It is a reaction I've been trying to understand for awhile now, trying to figure out why it makes me grumpy.

I'm never going to turn down conversation, especially about things that provoke that sort of response from me. I want to pick it apart and understand it.

[wandelrust.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Not that I don't have huge feminist sympathies and agree that gender roles are pretty fucked up in this country (and possibly everywhere), I think the NY times article was pretty clear that this entire discipline is plagued by trying to separate the societal from the physiological and psychological. But no, the author of the article clearly hates women. Or something. I couldn't really tell.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

As I've gotten older, I've found that what I find attractive is branching out, which is nice because when I was younger it would be extremely intense and extremely focused. Of course, that intensity helped me cut a path to those folks and make myself known to them, which was helpful some of the time and almost physically painful the rest. I spend a lot less time communicating physically as well - I was a very touchy feely person and now I find that I'm uncertain about touch and so I usually stay on the side of caution with it.

[eggies-red-dres.livejournal.com]

I don't know that what feels good to people can be categorized. And I think know why the women didn't get aroused about the ambling man on the beach. Nekked men aren't as fun if they aren't *working*. Now a man sweating while doing a bench press or digging a ditch or playing soccer without a shirt, that's something to see. I mean, if he works that hard for HIS fun...

I think they should look at female engorgement if the info their after is pleasurable associations. They are right that lubrication could be a protective mechanism as much as arousal. Technically difficult yes, but more accurate if it's possible.

[lithera.livejournal.com]

Interesting thought but I don't know if it would entirely be more accurate or not. Again, you get a lot of varied responses, I'd imagine.

[apestyle.livejournal.com]

Why do you say that the author "clearly hates women"?

...or am I missing a joke.

again.

[fireballof3.livejournal.com]

Amen bruthah

I find myself more & more enjoying the flirty fun without the compelling need to act on it.

[grymor.livejournal.com]

You are missing disgust/sarcasm, engendered from the reply article on feministe. The reply article seems to have a lot of trouble separating the different views presented in the original article and attempts to bash it with counterpoints that the original article actually made.

* wandelrust: Please eviscerate my comment if I've misinterpreted yours.

[wandelrust.livejournal.com]

Nope, that's exactly it. I just had a bit of pronoun failure there.